Scary

[i_deserve...]

I would've gone for William Wilburforce or however you spell it in that thing, but he wasn't up.

Weird looking midget bloke who wanted to free the slaves - one brave fucker!

[Fullerov]

I would have voted Cromwell (for greatest effect)

or Orwell for popularity.

[Monpot]

Taken from a random website, looking up the Tonypandy incident. He's quite hated in bits of Wales.

Churchill was the a ruthless representative of big business. As Home Secretary in 1910, he ordered 600 Metropolitan Police into Tonypandy to deal with the strike of 30,000 miners in the Rhondda and Aberdare Valleys. He ordered General Nevil Macready, who later commanded the Black and Tans in Ireland, to go to South Wales to take charge of the military forces in the area.

Strikers and their families were continually attacked and bludgeoned by police, and one striker was killed. Churchill's troops later restored "order".

In the Dock Strike of 1911, again Churchill threatened to use 25,000 troops in defence of the employers. Asquith was forced to intervene "least Mr Churchill's habit of calling in the military to settle industrial disputes should bring open warfare in the streets." (Francis Williams). In the rail strike of the same year, Churchill nevertheless mobilised 50,000 troops to crush the strike. In Liverpool and Llanelli, troops opened fire on strikers.

After the Bolshevik Revolution in 1917, Churchill gave whole-hearted backing to the White Armies and the forces of counter-revolution. He was behind the British counter-revolutionary expeditionary forces into Russia.

During the British General Strike of 1926, he edited the Government's newspaper, the British Gazette. According to Jimmy Thomas, the Railway workers' leader and betrayer of the strike: "How strongly Winston felt over the General Strike I have every reason to know; I remember meeting him behind the Speaker's chair a few hours before that great event, and he not only denounced the whole business, but did not hesitate to tell me that a little bloodshed would do no harm!

"I replied that I was quite sure he was ready to lead the tanks up Whitehall." (My Story, p. 238.)

Before the war, Churchill and his chums were delighted with Hitler's attacks on Bolshevism. Observed with favour the rise of Mussolini and Hitler. This "great" war leader only opposed German fascism when it threatened the interests of British capitalism.

In the General Election of 1945, this great Prime Minister then tried to frighten British workers away from Labour by saying a Labour victory would prepare the way for the Gestapo! This was out of desperation. It didn't pay off, and Labour was elected with a landslide. Became Tory Prime Minister again in 1951-55. When he died in 1965, he was not missed by class conscious workers who remembered his role as a ruthless representative of the British ruling class. This is the real character of Winston Churchill.

[Fullerov]

There is no excuse for his actions with regards to the strikes.

As regards to his favouring Facism to Bolshevism, so what? He didnt like Bolshevism. I would argue that he was probably even right about its dangers.

[i_deserve...]

You shouldn't mix up Bolshevism and Stalinism.

Bolshevism under Lenin never actually presided over a peaceful Russia due to the civil war and then Lenin's stroke. He Lenin lived longer, or Trotsky gained 'power' (it would have been a socialist democracy, as it was under Lenin) things would probably have been very different as Lenin was a genuine believer in Marxism, but unfortunately the system was very easy to corrupt.

Churchill was against Marxist principles, which are admirable in moral terms.

[Fullerov]

Lenin was also responsible for much bloodshed which should not be forgotten. He clearly was not as bad a Stalin was no-one was........

[i_deserve...]

i'm aware of Lenin's rather Nietzchian tendencies to stubbornly parade his opinion over everyone else's, but after the civil war all the executions dropped in number drastically, etc.

Communism has been completely subverted and demonised since his death though.

And Pol Pot was possibly worse than Stalin, if we're playing Top Trumps: Despot Edition.

[Fullerov]

Lenin was responsible for the deaths of Millions sometghing for which Trotsky must bear at least partial responsibility.

I still say Stalin beats Pol Pot in this rather Macarbe game

[i_deserve...]

Well, Pol Pot murdered up to 33% of a nation's whole population in just 4 years for reasons as trivial as wearing glasses.

At least Stalin saved the world from Hitler, Pol Pot has no 'redeeming features'.

this debate is starting to make me feel quite uneasy.

[Fullerov]

Yeah it is rather unpleasant.

If i had to chose between Stalin and Hitler as a leader to live under i would choose Hitler with no hesitation.

[i_deserve...]

blimey, that's a bit much!

I don't think I could live under either, I'd join a resistance movement or flee at the very least.

hypothetical situations like this are impossible to evaluate as Hitler would likely have died before the 3rd Reich was fully in place around Europe as he dreamed and the Nazis were based primarily on propaganda and were much weaker than general consensus would have you believe, but the fact that eugenics was such a big part of things is just creepy.

plus it's also arguable that a Nazi state would never have lasted very long as fascist anti-individualism eliminates the creation of new leaders due to its suppression of new ideas.

Stalin wasn't dedicated to racial genocide on the same level as Hitler, but I suppose you were more likely to disappear...

Lavrenti Beria, Stalin's head of secret police, is quite possibly history's greatest monster - google him, it's shocking.

[Fullerov]

try Yahova who was in charge of the Great Terror 1936-38, no-one knows how many millions died but many estimates start! at 6 million.

I didnt want to live in a Nazi state, but i believe it would be easier for me to live in, when i answered i was assuming worldwide domination of one system so no democracy to flee to.

Ever read Swastika Nights?

[i_deserve...]

no, what's it about?

I thought it was Ezhov in charge of the Great Terror? On account of it also being called the Ezhovschina... Sorry, i'm a smug Russian history specialist.

Beria was the head of the GPU, personally carried out executions, had a secret life as a predatory paedophile - kidnapping girls off the street, and was generally so evil it surpasses everything. There's a difference between ordering murder and actually carrying it out.

[Fullerov]

Yezhov was who i was on about. Beria was his successor fellow russian history student

Swastika Nights was a rather prescient novel written in the mid 30's, basically it is set in about the 9th century since Hitler died. Nazism has become a religion with Hitler as the god figure. Germany rules half the world Japan the other. Jews have been utterly exterminated and Christians have replaced them as figures of disgust. Women are literally seen as subhuman

[i_deserve...]

hmm, i'll look out for that.

i keep telling myself to read more, but i usually end up either listening to music, on here, or reading factual stuff.